You are absolutely right on this, Diana. However, we have to do a little more than just believe. John 3:16 is not the "escape clause". We have to do the will of our Father and be obedient to Him. We have to buried with him through baptism to walk a new life, "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."Romans 6:3-4

Heather,

God does not hate you. He is always with you and always loves you. Just don't go back to that church. You'll find one when the time is right.

I love that letter Pearl! Thanks for sharing that.

I also have a little bit of lots of religions I believe in, but I was especially blessed with complete faith from the time I was very young. God is my best friend, he is always with me and I try to always remember to let him guide me.

I was born Jewish, so I believe that God is called God. Then I became a Buddhist for about 8 years. I don't care for organized religion so I didn't stick with Judaism. The Buddhist practice that I belonged to was also an organized religion, and they did not believe in God, but in a cosmic consciousness. They also felt that theirs was the only way to worship - something I find I cannot be a part of. There are many ways to worship and many names for God. I love Jesus, I love Mary, I don't question any of my beliefs, nor any one else's.

The only thing that I would like to have would be a community of people who feel as I do. Sometimes I need a place to bring my feelings, fears, joys, etc. to. Sept. 11th was a day like that.

I'll find a group like that some day and I'll be very happy.

As long as they are teaching from the bible and about salvation it really is about finding a church that works for you. I believe that Jesus we lead you to the right church. He is one that has and internet church, as well as 15+ walk in locations.

http://www.lifechurch.tv/

yeah judy i can't be a part of something that thinks it's the only way. it's like "you're not OK till you think exactly like i do."
people have to do what works for them. i think often we make God in our image, whatever we believe doesn't change the reality of whatever really is going on. we have to find our own way.
i think Jesus led a very broad and inclusive life, and that was a big part of his message.
the universe is pretty amazing, there are galaxies upon galaxies out there. who knows what is going on elsewhere.

Wow, I was really bad at spelling in that post!

Whatever we do, whatever we choose to believe, God and His Word should be our only guide. 2 Timothy 3:16 & 17, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." We should all be like the Bereans who were being taught by Paul and Silas in Acts 17. They searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether the things they were being taught were true.

God created us and He created His church. The only way to really know if how we are living and believing, and how we are worshiping is correct and in accordance with God's will is to read and study the "manufacturer's instructions".

What I think and what I believe does not matter to you and your salvation. What God says and what He wants is what matters.

I'm sure it wasn't Catholic!!!!! LMAO!

I like what you have to say here - It's so huge, and yet so simple. I feel that if you open yourself up and ask God to guide you, whatever happens is perfect. Sometimes it certainly doesn't feel that way, but faith is the most wonderful gift.
I am happy way down inside, and I know it's because I just follow where God takes me.

Thanks, Marilyn. That's so true!

after being in some different denominations, including the born again type, i've come down to "take care of myself, help other people, and take care of the earth." that's what i do.

taking this thread in a new direction!!!

Title: Faith and Death

I spole with my mom today, who as I mentioned is a charismatic type believer. If anyone wonders why I am not putting a denomination, she calles herself non denominational. So I am trying to describe her beliefs. Anyway, a friend of hers son died. He was a bit older than I am, so I am gonna say maybe 40? and he had a sudden, massive heart attack. You know, the type where no one gets to say goodbye. So the parents are believing for a miracle and are going to have a healing ceremony to raise him from the dead.
A few years ago one of my cousins sons was drowned. It was horrible because he was only about 15 months old. The same thing, they gathered everyone together and prayed over him, I wasnt there, but the way I was told, his mother was convinced there was still life even tho the Dr's had pronounced him dead. Let me just say, this is so devastating for these people. The basis of this belief is that if you have enough faith it will happen. You have to believe hard enough. If someone is in the room who dont believ strongly enough, they are asked to leave the room. Their unbelief could keep the miracle from happening. So what your left with is a grieving family who is now overwhelmed by guilt that they were unable to believe enough to raise this person from the dead.
So I asked my mom, what is wrong with this religion that you can have enough faith to raise the dead, but you dont believe in a hereafter. Of course if they are asked, they look forward to heaven and all its promises, but when it comes to putting their money where their mouth is, well they obviously are terrified of death.
Isnt the very basis of christian belief that Jesus died to save us and we get eternal life, which we have to die to claim?

I'd be interested in anyone elses thought on this..........as in, what do you think death is?

I guess I believe anything is possible. Like, literally...anything really is possible. If you want to be born again, like reincarnation, you have that option. Whether it be on Earth, or on another planet galaxies and galaxies away. If you want to go to a Heaven as you see it, you do.

I think that if you see others in the after-life, that they are an image of your choosing. For example, if your grandmum passed away and you died years and years later and wanted to see her, you would see her as YOU remember her. But she might see herself as she was happiest. Which could be 16 years old or something. But she would see you as she remembered you as well.

I believe after-life is what you want it to be, and in continuous and ever changing, not anything set in stone, like..you go here, you do this. I believe it's literally different for everyone and the possibilities are endless.

I don't believe in a hell. But I do believe those possibilities aren't as readily available to someone that was really evil in life. Or someone who abused life. I believe they are limited in the expansion of their after-life due to those choices. So I guess I believe our choices govern what we are capable of doing in our after-life.

If any of that made any sense at all, lol.

Personally, I believe what the apostle Paul said in his letter to the church a Phillippi in Philippians 1:21-24, "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ which is far better. Nonetheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you."

Those around us need us and we have a desire to be here to help them and to see how things that we have begun will turn out, however, death is not something to be feared for those who believe and are faithful to God.

The Bible talks about to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, but this promise is only for those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and have accepted Him as their Savior.

When a person accepts Christ into their heart as their Savior their name is written in the Book of Life. When a person dies that has their name in there they are immediately escorted into the presence of God to live in heaven for eternity. The Bible tells us that Heaven is a wonderful place and that Jesus is there preparing it for us at this time.

For a person who has not accepted Christ and their name is not in the Book of Life, they are in dire trouble. The Bible speaks of a place of torment, or hell. In Luke 16:19-31, there is a story of a rich man and Lazuras that you need to look up. In it the rich man said 27 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

Sorry, but I hit the submit button before I was through!!!

When you die there are NO second chances, NO reincarnation. From the moment you take your last breath it has already been decided on where you will go, depending on your relationship with God. In one of my earlier posts I've already given you the basics on how to accept Christ into your heart. As Marilyn pointed out, the Bible is our handbook, our guide to life. And as I pointed out before there is NEVER a decision that is more important.

I know where I'm going when I die and, no, I'm not afraid because I know that my name is written in the Book of Life and I will live eternally with Jesus and my loved ones who have also accepted Christ as their Savior.

For a good example of what is necessary to feel certain of your future and your standing with God upon your death, read Acts 8:26-40. The eunich did not have the completed Bible, the entire Word of God, so he needed Phillip to explain to him about Jesus and what he needed to do to be saved. We have God's Word, and we can read it for ourselves. We have Acts 8 and other scriptures to refer to. We are so blessed that the way of salvation has been given to us, and that we live in a society with the freedom to read and study. Bibles are available to us everywhere, even at Walmart, so we will have no excuse when we stand before the Lord someday.

Diana, explains it very well. When we die, it's all over. There is no more second chance, and if we have not lived as God wishes, we cannot say we did not know what we needed to do. There is a place of torment for those who have not lived as they should. It is my sincere prayer that we all travel the narrow road.

hhmm, I guess I have to disagree slightly, I believe in preordination. I think your life is planned from the start and its known since before the foundations of the earth what your choices will be thus your more destined than it being by your good works. (read Ephesians 14-13) I take quite literally that our good works are as "filthy rags" (menstruel clothes, and in that time untouchable) simply because we are never, no matter what we do going to be able to "earn" the blood of Christ. His was the supreme sacrifice, as he was/is diety and nothing you or I can do as in works can earn us eternal life. It is a gift, I believe freely given and only our pride makes us not want to be beholden.

However, I guess that wasnt really the question I was trying to ask! LOL! Sorry I wasnt plain. I wanted to know, if you believe you have the faith to die? Would you grasp at straws to preserve this earthly life if you truly believed you have an wonderful hereafter waiting for you? If you really believe should you not be eager to die?

this is such a fascinating thread! i love hearing people's points of view.
i can relate to the "if you don't believe enough leave" coyote. the thing i noticed about the exposure i had to the born again type rreligion was that if things weren't working for you it was your fault. you weren't good enough. i thought that was very damaging.

i think there is a life after death, but it's not a one shot deal. i think things are a continuum. a process and progress. who knows what it is next. i don't believe in hell. there are people who are so genetically deficient they don't have judgement of right and wrong or ability to control it.

coyote, i would think that the belief that there is paradise waiting might spur a person on to die, but i also think that belief also would have a part that if you hurried your death you might effect your paradise. because there is a "plan" for your life and it's up to God to decide when you die.
i don't personally believe that at all, but i think other people may see it that way.

I believe that, when I die, God will take care of me, just as he has always done.

I like to believe in heaven, and that I will see everyone there who has died before me. I also believe in reincarnation, I think, until we reach the point where we get it right. I also believe that once we do get it right, we have to come back and help others. I could be right or I could be wrong, but I do know that, no matter what does happen after I die, I have to follow his guidance while I'm alive.

Like I said in another post, I don't question my beliefs too much. I just always feel God's presence and try to always do what he wants me to do. I love God and have complete faith in him.

Coyote Queen,

My daughter converted to Catholicism when she married. She loves it! I wish you all the happiness she has found.

Ok, (deep breath) to address the part about predestination.......The scripture that you posted includes a few others with it. Ephesians 1:11-14 11In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

This is a very difficult passage to understand but here goes and I'm going to copy the study notes from my Bible on this because I think that it explains it very well.

"Concerning election (being chosen) and predestination, we might use the analogy of a great ship on its way to heaven. The ship (the church) is chosen by God to be His very own vessel. Christ is the Captain and Pilot of this ship. All who desire to be a part of this elect ship and its Captain can do so through a living faith in Christ, by which they come on board the ship. As long as they are on the ship, in company with the ship's Captain, they are among the elect. If they choose to abandon the ship and Captain, they cease to be part of the elect. Election is always only in union with the Captain and his ship. Predestination tells us about the ship's destination and what God has prepared for those remaining on it. God invites everyone to come aboard the elect ship through faith in Jesus Christ."

In Isaiah 64:6 it says "6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." If we go back and look at the whole chapter you'll see that God is responding to Isaiah's prayer about the rebellious nation of Israel. He wasn't recognizing their worship or their works done for Him because of the way they were living their lives.

Matthew 5:16 says "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." So my good works are important but I have to let the light of Jesus shine. The glory for these good works isn't for me but to glorify Jesus, otherwise what I've done is nothing.

Now we do not "earn" the blood of Christ. It is a gift. Ephesians 2:8-9 says "8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast." Works does not save me but faith does!

I'm a human and I make mistakes but when I asked Jesus into my heart He covered me with His blood and made me His child. Now when the Heavenly Father looks at me it is through the precious blood of Jesus and it's like He's looking at me with rose-colored glasses and He sees me as perfect. Of course, I will never be perfect and I do make mistakes in my life but as long as I'm trying my best to follow what the Bible says and I have Jesus in my heart then I know that someday I will be with Him in Heaven.

I'm sorry to post so many times but you had several things in your post to address, Coyote. I hope that I'm not boring you.

Do I have the faith to die? Let me put it this way, Coyote, if you and I were in an extremely dangerous spot and only one of us could make it out alive then I would stay behind because I know where I'm going to spend eternity. No doubts. I would hope that by my death that you would have time to come and know Jesus as your Savior.

Would I grasp at straws to preserve this earthly life if you truly believed you have a wonderful hereafter waiting for you? If I were to get cancer or something like that it would definitely depend on how advanced the disease was for me to make a decision like that. I don't know that I would "grasp for straws" for I know that I'm headed for a better place. I would take some treatments but I wouldn't go overboard and try everything just to stay alive. I do have a wonderful family and several grandchildren that I would love to see grow and become adults. Plus I have a much younger daughter that I want to see happily married and her children. I defintely wouldn't be "desperate" to stay alive though.

If you really believe should you not be eager to die? No, not eager to die. Each of us has a different circle of friends in our life, like I bet you don't have contact with anyone else in my community, and I am to be the bearer of God's love and His plan of salvation to those that are around me. If I'm eager to die then I lose the time that I have to tell those around me about God. I have a work to do and when I'm finished (and that's not up to me to decide) then God will call me home.

I am also finding this an interesting thread!and thats an excellent point Pearl. I dont think we should attempt to hasten our deaths! I just am heart broken for my family members who actually try to raise their dead. I think your religious beliefs should give you peace in death. I dont think they have that.

I have spent years reading different translations of the bible, different theologies from different organized religions and even pagan beliefs and theorys. The thing I have noticed is its in the details. Once you scrape all the top layers off, most forms of religion are simply saying the same thing. It is many faceted, for sure. I think we each get hung up on our little details!

Judy, thanks for your well wishes. I do love attending the Catholic church. Their ceremonies are unbelievably beautiful. I personally have spent most of my life reading the bible and have very decided convictions and personal beliefs. I dont feel that being Catholic in any way takes away from my personal beliefs. I have found that Catholicism has been a lovely way to worship. A place for me to join in with other people and enjoy a community of people who have the desire to live good and wholesome lives. I am further comforted by the fact that Catholicism has been around since the very early days of christianity. They are not following a new vision, but rather a tradition of beliefs. I dont like fly by night religions. So, I would have to say that this church fits me nicely!


as I shared above, I am still trying to drive home the point that these 2 stories I shared are of grieving families who are trying to raise the dead, yet claim to believe their children are "sleeping in Jesus" which IMO is a bit different than going to the Dr for some routine health care!

and now I just want to add, for everyone posting on this thread. Please do not interpret my comments as argumentative. Obviously religion like politics are a very controversal topic. I certainly am not trying to convince anyone to believe like me, and as I have spent years figuring my own path, I am not looking to convert. I am simply fascinated by everyones beliefs.

I hope that in no way what I have to say is being construed as argumentative. My prayer is that what I have said is presented in a very loving way.

To address the issue of raising a person from the dead.......I DO believe in miracles and I believe that there are still miracles done today. When a miracle is performed then the name of Jesus is lifted up and He is praised. There is no way that man should get the credit for the mracle. No one should feel comdemned. That's not God's way. Why He chooses to answer one prayer and not another I don't have an answer for but I know that God's ways are so above man's ways. He can see the whole picture where we only see a small part. If I have a prayer answered one time but not the next, did I have more faith in one prayer? No, I think that God in His wisdom decides because He knows so much more than I do.

This is not about being raised from the dead but this is a miracle that I heard about........My aunt is an international prayer partner and is friends with a woman named Beth Alvez (I'm not sure about the spelling). Beth was in another country when a woman came to her to pray for her hand which had lost some fingers and was hurting alot. Beth prayed for the woman's pain and went about her day. The next morning she was wakened by a woman outside of her room shouting and carrying on so she went out to see what was going on. It was the woman that she had prayed for and when she looked at the hand......all of the fingers were on it!! That wasn't what she had prayed for at all! Beth took no credit for this but the glory was for God. She went to her knees in prayer at the awesomeness of God and what He had done! Can you imagine seeing such a miracle? We have missionaries that come to our church and there are so many miracles!

miracles do still happen obviously. anyone who is barren only has to look at their fellow sisters and know that the mere fact that a woman can concieve and give birth is the biggest and most underrated miracle ever.

however, while I do believe in miracles, I havent in my lifetime seen anyone raised from the dead or heard of it happening. And like Thomas, I would have had to know the individuals you speak of to believe her fingers came back. Hearing the testimony would no way come close to convincing me, in fact, photographic evidence wouldnt even cut it for me!!!! Sadly we have all seen the way things are exploited for both attention and money and it does seem many like to use God for personal gain.